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Is PhD in pure math worth it?

Four

Four

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3/19/12
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I am currently enrolled in a MS in computer science program at a top 20 school. My goal is to work as a front-office quant analyst in the future. I found out too late that a MSCS will not lead me to a quant analyst role, so would it make sense to do a PhD in math? I heard you shouldn't do a PhD for the sake of getting a quant job, but I noticed that the top banks seem to only hire PhDs for quant analyst roles these days. My guess is that a PhD in math doing research in financial math should qualify a person for a job as a quant.

Or should I just apply to a MFE?
 
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It depends on what specialization in Phd maths and your research dissertation. If you are recruited as RA as part of your Phd training in derivative pricing then everything you are about to learn in technical knowledge will be make good use in landing a quant role.

There are a few schools offering Phd in financial mathematics rated in this forum.
 
I'm now convinced that the only people who
Think a phd in math is just four years away are the people who haven't studied high level math.

Andy has said it countless times and I agree completely. You don't just decide a phd is a nice idea. Tell me how nice it is when you realize you have to spend 12 hours a day studying to keep up with your classmates. Your classmates who you've come to realize are not hoping for your success, rather measuring their success by how much better they perform than you do.
 
JesseLevermore said:
I'm now convinced that the only people who
Think a phd in math is just four years away are the people who haven't studied high level math.

Andy has said it countless times and I agree completely. You don't just decide a phd is a nice idea. Tell me how nice it is when you realize you have to spend 12 hours a day studying to keep up with your classmates. Your classmates who you've come to realize are not hoping for your success, rather measuring their success by how much better they perform than you do.
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It is probably true what you are saying, but still weird. IMO.
 
JesseLevermore said:
Tell me how nice it is when you realize you have to spend 12 hours a day studying to keep up with your classmates. Your classmates who you've come to realize are not hoping for your success, rather measuring their success by how much better they perform than you do.
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A decent math PhD takes some of your life force out of you. And PhD students are competing with one another because the jobs aren't there; it's literally a gladiatorial contest. This, incidentally, is also why quant recruitment is taking place among those holding PhDs: there's a large pool of unemployed and precariously employed math (and physics) PhDs. Recruiters can pick and choose from this pool (it's a buyer's market). It's only the utterly daft who think that gee, if they complete a PhD (on something they know nothing about), then they too will get a quant job offer.
 
MFE and Phd (maths major in FM) are two completely different skill sets.

The reason why many of Phd maths graduates not landing a job in quant role is because their dissertation and RA skill not related to FM.

Those who're trained in Phd FM knows the lucrative demand in market especially in derivative pricing, a REAL quantitative researcher role.

For example, i am specialize in market micro-structure in developing hft strategies, but i don't need Phd maths because i do not disclose the secret in dissertation for the sake of passing viva test. Maybe some day i will elevate to Phd when i discover a new technology in predicting the quotes.
 
PTN said:
MFE and Phd (maths major in FM) are two completely different skill sets.

The reason why many of Phd maths graduates not landing a job in quant role is because their dissertation and RA skill not related to FM.

Those who're trained in Phd FM knows the lucrative demand in market especially in derivative pricing, a REAL quantitative researcher role.

For example, i am specialize in market micro-structure in developing hft strategies, but i don't need Phd maths because i do not disclose the secret in dissertation for the sake of passing viva test. Maybe some day i will elevate to Phd when i discover a new technology in predicting the quotes.
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Mind if I ask what type of education and at what level you have completed?
 
I'm taking classes with CS PhDs right now and yes, there is definitely no hand-holding. The classes are painful (algorithms) and stressful but so far manageable. Is the math PhD much harder?

My career goal is to work as a trader or quant. I trade with my IRA portfolio and have gotten good returns over the past 10 years (~25%) and would love to do it professionally. Is it possible to become a trader with a MSCS or will I get pigeonholed as an IT person forever?

I do know that a MSCS will not give me a shot at any "quant" type jobs.
 
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Four said:
I'm taking classes with CS PhDs right now and yes, there is definitely no hand-holding. The classes are painful (algorithms) and stressful but so far manageable. Is the math PhD much harder?

My career goal is to work as a trader or quant. I trade with my IRA portfolio and have gotten good returns over the past 10 years (~25%) and would love to do it professionally. Is it possible to become a trader with a MSCS or will I get pigeonholed as an IT person forever?

I do know that a MSCS will not give me a shot at any "quant" type jobs.
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Apparently you don't even know what pure math is. There is no financial math there.

Also, there is plenty of hand-holding in pure math btw.
 
I think having never worked in finance it's hard to know what to do. I've always liked my math and engineering courses the most in college and have now ended up in a MSCS program. It seems like quants do the most intellectually challenging work in finance.

Would you say the only way to quant/modeling roles at the top i-banks and hf's is through a PhD?
 
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Four said:
I think having never worked in finance it's hard to know what to do. I've always liked my math and engineering courses the most in college and have now ended up in a MSCS program. It seems like quants do the most intellectually challenging work in finance.

Would you say the only way to quant/modeling roles at the top i-banks and hf's is through a PhD?
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Try to work out these problems to see if you can do pure math PhD.

All these problems are undergraduate level pure math. If you could do these problems without much troubles, you would be O.K. to pursue a pure math PhD, otherwise, you should think twice.

Analysis:

Find a harmonic function f on the right half-plane such that when approaching any point in the positive half of the y-axis, the function has limit 1, while when approaching any point in the negative half of the y-axis, the function has limit -1.

Geometry and Topology:

Let M be a smooth 4-dimensional manifold. A symplectic form is a closed 2-form w on M such that w ^ w ( w wedge w) is a nowhere vanishing 4-form.
(a) construct a symplectic form on R^4
(b) show that there are no symplectic forms on S^4.

Algebra:

let F be a splitting field over Q the polynomial x^8 - 5 belongs Q[x]. Recall the F is the subfield of C generated by all roots of this polynomial.
(a) Find the degree [F:Q] of th number field F
(b) Determine the Galois group Gal(F/Q).
 
Wow, thanks. I'll need some more math courses before I can do these. I'll keep your examples in mind.
 
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Four said:
Wow, thanks. I'd need some more math courses before I can do these. I'll keep your examples in mind.
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The above examples are indeed _pure_ maths. Computational finance uses more applied and numerical mathematics.

Pure maths is a very broad concept. Not all areas have practical applications.
 
I was looking at NYU's math PhD program and noticed that Marco Avellaneda is a well-respected financial math researcher there. Wouldn't you qualify for the best quant roles in the industry if a respected financial math researcher were your dissertation advisor? And NYU doesn't seem to offer a PhD in applied math either. Just "math".
 
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Four said:
I am currently enrolled in a MS in computer science program at a top 20 school. My goal is to work as a front-office quant analyst in the future. I found out too late that a MSCS will not lead me to a quant analyst role, so would it make sense to do a PhD in math? I heard you shouldn't do a PhD for the sake of getting a quant job, but I noticed that the top banks seem to only hire PhDs for quant analyst roles these days. My guess is that a PhD in math doing research in financial math should qualify a person for a job as a quant.

Or should I just apply to a MFE?
Click to expand...

A concern here is that the average CS education does not contain enough hard maths for many roles.
For a PhD in maths, you probably need to have a BA in maths. CS is not all that useful in this context IMO.

On the other hand, if you are good at 'real progamming' then there's lots of chances, everywhere.
 
systemtrader said:
Mind if I ask what type of education and at what level you have completed?
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Hi systemtrader

I graduated with Msc Mathematical Science specialized in modelling MM in hft strategies.
Those maths, stats and algo stuffs that i created were self modified.
 
PTN said:
Hi systemtrader

I graduated with Msc Mathematical Science specialized in modelling MM in hft strategies.
Those maths, stats and algo stuffs that i created were self modified.
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Wow, that seems like a really specialized degree. Which school offers specialization in HFT strategies?
 
MiloRambaldi said:
Apparently you don't even know what pure math is. There is no financial math there.

Also, there is plenty of hand-holding in pure math btw.
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I strongly disagreed.

Pure maths is the backbone for FM application.
 
systemtrader said:
Wow, that seems like a really specialized degree. Which school offers specialization in HFT strategies?
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Based on my research experiences, i designed the hft in mm model.

You cannot find those hft's maths theories from the books. If there is any, every prof, phd maths would have been hft strategist. Unfortunately there is only a few IMO who knows the real stuffs.

I hope to share with quantnet more about hft in live trading mode (video recorded to be released next summer) since many people have been talking about it.
 
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