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Post Dodd-Frank, why do you want to be a Sell-Side Trader ?

Joined
11/30/12
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Few yrs back, people were interested in trading because of the risk you could take & the profit you could generate.

However, with the passing of the Dodd-Frank Act (Volker Rule), banks are no longer allowed to run prop-trading desks, meaning that the only "trader" positions in an investment bank are "flow trader" or "execution trader", where you are basically executing the trades for clients & earning a small commission on each trade.

Given the increased regulation, what is the incentive for someone to apply for a trader position at an investment bank ?
 
I think a lot of people use it as a stepping stone to a HF, prop shop, or even grad school. There is a certain prestige if you have Goldman, JP Morgan, or an of the BBs on your resume. "Execution" and "Flow" trades also build a strong network of HF managers and asset managers.
 
Dtm - Thanks for sharinfg your views, but I have a doubt there.

An execution/flow trader at a BB is not making decisions about what to trade (he is simply executing the trades that customers want). Whereas a prop trader/HF trader is making decisions on what to trade & is taking the risk.

So given this difference, is it feasible for an execution/flow trader at a BB to move into a HF/prop shop ?
 
i think you're selling (good) flow traders short a bit. there are a number of other things that go into every trade, not the least of which is how to hedge that trade most effectively and cheaply. monitoring a large book, keeping it relatively flat, knowing how to react to/prepare for various market occurrences...the list goes on, and these are just the basic ones. gaining an understanding of the markets is also quite important, and you get to see what the buy side is doing and when.
 
you are also forgetting market making. market making is still allowed and banks have many traders that are quite good at it. in particular, barclays, goldman and merrill
 
However, with the passing of the Dodd-Frank Act (Volker Rule), banks are no longer allowed to run prop-trading desks, meaning that the only "trader" positions in an investment bank are "flow trader" or "execution trader", where you are basically executing the trades for clients & earning a small commission on each trade.
That is not entirely true. US Treasury, FX and several other categories of trading are exempt from DF Title 6. Take a look at 619 very carefully. Davis Polk and several other law firms have done nice summaries of what's permitted and what's not.
 
My desk (and many others in FICC divisions) is totally unaffected by these regulations thus far. We make markets as well as take proprietary positions. As far as I know, execution salestrading for per trade commissions only exists (and has existed for some time) in equities.
 
My bad - I should have specified that I was talking about Equities only. So if Dodd-Frank has banned IBs from prop trading in equities, why would someone want to become an "equity trader" at an IB ??
 
My bad - I should have specified that I was talking about Equities only. So if Dodd-Frank has banned IBs from prop trading in equities, why would someone want to become an "equity trader" at an IB ??

Well I don't think anyone wants to be a stock trader at an IB. That sounds like a terribly boring job.
But there are equity derivatives desks that handle less transparent and less liquid products that you can deal and hedge with simpler securities to make a decent amount of money. And since this means your book is not empty, you have a good amount of flexibility to take positions in the market. While you're technically a market maker, you can still take "strategic" positions to make money.
 
My desk (and many others in FICC divisions) is totally unaffected by these regulations thus far. We make markets as well as take proprietary positions. As far as I know, execution salestrading for per trade commissions only exists (and has existed for some time) in equities.

financeguy
Thanks !

You mentioned that your desk is unaffected by Voler Rule. Just to make sure I'm understanding the concepts correctly, could I ask what product-desk you work on ? And is this on the sell-side ?

Also, you said that Fixed Income trading is unaffected by the Volker Rule. Does Fixed Income trading occur electronically or via a human trader ?

Thankyou very much..
 
financeguy
Thanks !

You mentioned that your desk is unaffected by Voler Rule. Just to make sure I'm understanding the concepts correctly, could I ask what product-desk you work on ? And is this on the sell-side ?

Also, you said that Fixed Income trading is unaffected by the Volker Rule. Does Fixed Income trading occur electronically or via a human trader ?

Thankyou very much..
eager_to_learn, you need to do some fundamental research on how these markets function. Andy Nguyen has assembled a weath of resources on this site. What areas are you interested in?
 
Ken Abbott - I agree with you, I need to learn more since I am relatively new to finance. I'm primarily interested in Trading, and I would like to begin my career as a trader on the sell-side, and eventually move to the buy-side (to a prop-trading firm or an asset manager). I hope this is a feasible plan. Please correct me if not.

What I can't understand is:-

1. What asset classes are traded by a human trader (instead of being traded electronically), atleast on the sell-side ?
2. If Volker Rule will affect the above asset classes, that means I can be a market-maker in the above asset classes, but not a prop trader. Which further means that I will not be making decisions on where to invest money. So how can I develop the skills required to transition to the buy-side (where I will probably be required to decide where to invest capital) ?

Additionally, can you suggest a book where I can learn how trading actually works ? I mean, the mechanics of a trade. Something for a beginners level would be great.

Thank You.
 
I think you're planning way too far in advance. It sound similar to "I want to be a tax attorney specializing in cross-border financial flows between Bhutan and Nepal that are denominated in EUR, but only on alternate Tuesdays."

Focus on getting your foot in the door in Finance. Then think about whether or not you want to trade. Then think about which products interest you and whether you like buy-side or sell-side.

Everything is traded by humans and everything is traded electrocically. You need to understand the interaction between systems and markets. Start with "After the Trade is Made: Processing Securities Transactions" by Weiss for an intro here. Then study the exchanges. Start with NYSE, ICE, and CME. Their websites will have info. Then read the career guides posted here.
 
Also, you said that Fixed Income trading is unaffected by the Volker Rule. Does Fixed Income trading occur electronically or via a human trader ?
You also need to keep up with the current news. FI trading may no longer exist at the biggest banks by the time you get a job.
Citigroup Inc. said last month it would cut 11,000 jobs and pull back from some emerging-market nations. UBS AG announced in October that it would fire 10,000 workers and largely exit fixed-income trading.

Morgan Stanley (MS), the sixth-largest U.S. bank by assets, plans to eliminate about 1,600 jobs from its investment bank and support staff in coming weeks, a person with direct knowledge of the matter said.

The cuts total about 6 percent of the New York-based company’s institutional securities group, which includes investment banking and trading units, and support staff
http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...aid-to-plan-1-600-investment-banking-job-cuts
 
Can you mention what assets currently have trading jobs in investment banks, and are likely to continue for the next few years inspite of

(a) Regulations

AND

(b) Computerization.

Thanks Andy

It's impossible to predict the future. No one can tell you what the landscape will look like three years from now with any kind of certainty. My take on it, though, is a lot less dramatic than it appears most people believe in this forum. I think that things will look pretty similar in a few years to how they look now, just with a few less people. Computerization is not a new thing and has been going on for some time. If it were up to any rational manager, they'd fire 90% of their workforce in favor of computers that would do the work of those people. But most of the jobs on a trading floor that can be done be computers currently are, and banks aren't investing as much in anything including technology as they used to, at least for now. The fact is, the technology just isn't there yet and it's not fast encroaching. People aren't losing their jobs to machines, they're losing their jobs on the back of ROEs of trading dropping off due to deleveraging of bank balance sheets and capital/RWA charges. When you were free to use a highly levered balance sheet to support a trading floor, it makes sense to beef it up. Now that it effectively costs more to engage in balance sheet intensive transactions (like structured products trading), and any profit that is made is not levered nearly as much as it used to be, the net contributions of these trading businesses just don't justify employing as many people as they used to. There's also the issue of interest rates being at zero and forecasted to stay there for quite some time which is hurting fixed income / rates desks' ability to make money and central bank volatility suppression hurting foreign exchange businesses, so even unlevered PNLs across the street in the macro world have been pretty weak compared to other years. All that considered, it makes sense that a bank might want to downsize a whole lot and even exit some areas of trading, especially if you have businesses like UBS's private bank which makes gobs of money without tying up loads of capital in the process. Does that mean these jobs won't exist in a few years across the street? I highly doubt that. If anything, having people throw in the towel now makes me hopeful for a few years down the line when governments ease up on interest rate and currency intervention and there will be less competition to beat out when the money is on the table. But on the other hand, that's only a potential opportunity for the people who manage to keep their jobs through the hard times now, and it is certainly not ideal for job seekers with all this experienced trading floor staff chucked out onto the curb looking for work.

So given all that, if you still want to work in S&T in an investment bank, how do you come up with what product area to work in? To me that decision is all about how balance sheet intensive businesses will be treated going forward. Structured products businesses bring in the most money on the fixed income trading floor, but they also use up a huge amount of the bank's capital and are therefore costly to run in the new world order. However true this may be, at the moment banks appear to be disregarding this, as evidenced by the fact that these businesses are still the highest compensated areas. This is definitely something that has the potential to change, via banks calculating PNL net of capital charges. They already do that, but the question is how to correctly come up with the capital charge number. I'll admit this is a bit over my head, but that capital charge number for structured products businesses is one I believe can be a game changer for those working in those areas of the bank going forward. If you think banks are going to hit these businesses hard going forward, then go work in macro trading (interest rates / fixed income / foreign exchange). Otherwise if you think banks are going to protect structured products trading, then set your sights there. I personally think banks are going to be punitive toward that side of the business, but I definitely could be wrong there.
 
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