Should I get an MFE?

[Zeuge]

I'm a junior Economics major and I'm trying to figure out what I should do post-graduation. Here is my (preliminary) profile:

Education: Top 5 university (US)
GPA: 3.9
Relevant Coursework:
Math: Calc through Multuvariate, Linear Algebra (applied), Linear Algebra II (proof-based), Real Analysis, Math Stats, Probability Theory (next semester), ODE&PDE (next semester)
Comp Sci: Theory of Algorithms, Java (skimpy, I know)
Econ: Intermediate Micro/Macro, metrics
Experience: None (Hopefully, an internship this summer in a relevant field)

I'm interested mainly in Princeton, Columbia, Berkeley, NYU and Cornell. I understand Stanford takes in very few outside applicants. I also understand that many international applicants have more coursework/experience than me, and many have more programming/applied math classes and impressive research projects/work experience. Will my status as a domestic applicant, my GPA and the prestige of my undergrad university still give me an advantage vis-a-vis the majority of these applicants? If not, how do I improve my profile?
Besides the classes I've listed, I can take maybe 1 more before next Fall. I'm fairly fluent in Java, so I don't think learning C++ is going to be a huge pain, I can probably get some sort of online certification by that time.
And to go back to the question posed in the title, should I get an MFE? I am interested in derivatives pricing and quant finance but have no background in stochastic calculus. I could teach myself, but I would prefer a more rigorous classroom treatment so that I fully understand the material.

 

[albo]

I'm a junior Economics major and I'm trying to figure out what I should do post-graduation. Here is my (preliminary) profile:

Education: Top 5 university (US)
GPA: 3.9
Relevant Coursework:
Math: Calc through Multuvariate, Linear Algebra (applied), Linear Algebra II (proof-based), Real Analysis, Math Stats, Probability Theory (next semester), ODE&PDE (next semester)
Comp Sci: Theory of Algorithms, Java (skimpy, I know)
Econ: Intermediate Micro/Macro, metrics
Experience: None (Hopefully, an internship this summer in a relevant field)

I'm interested mainly in Princeton, Columbia, Berkeley, NYU and Cornell. I understand Stanford takes in very few outside applicants. I also understand that many international applicants have more coursework/experience than me, and many have more programming/applied math classes and impressive research projects/work experience. Will my status as a domestic applicant, my GPA and the prestige of my undergrad university still give me an advantage vis-a-vis the majority of these applicants? If not, how do I improve my profile?
Besides the classes I've listed, I can take maybe 1 more before next Fall. I'm fairly fluent in Java, so I don't think learning C++ is going to be a huge pain, I can probably get some sort of online certification by that time.
And to go back to the question posed in the title, should I get an MFE? I am interested in derivatives pricing and quant finance but have no background in stochastic calculus. I could teach myself, but I would prefer a more rigorous classroom treatment so that I fully understand the material.

Your curriculum is good, but there is something I don't understand. It looks like you haven't taken any Finance courses at all. You're saying you want to go into Financial Engineering. The MFE programs that you want to get into, require very high standards when it comes to understanding Finance concepts. How do you think you are going to make the transition?

 

[Sherlock]

Actually, they don't require very high standards when it comes to understanding Finance. One Finance course is enough for almost (if not all) programs. You profile is very good, good luck

 

[albo]

Actually, they don't require very high standards when it comes to understanding Finance. One Finance course is enough for almost (if not all) programs. You profile is very good, good luck

That is true is you want to develop software for the rest of your life. If Zeuge hopes to be a trader one day, he must have a very strong understanding of Financial Economics, in order to succeed. If you're not convinced yet, take a look at Princeton's Master in Finance Program. Their core courses are mainly about providing their students with a solid Financial Economics background, and after that they can pursue their individual interests in areas like Financial Technologies, Risk Management, etc,.

 

[kevin_charlemagne]

That is true is you want to develop software for the rest of your life. If Zeuge hopes to be a trader one day, he must have a very strong understanding of Financial Economics, in order to succeed. If you're not convinced yet, take a look at Princeton's Master in Finance Program. Their core courses are mainly about providing their students with a solid Financial Economics background, and after that they can pursue their individual interests in areas like Financial Technologies, Risk Management, etc,.

Kid, take a close look at the student profiles of CMU, NYU, Berkeley, Baruch, Cornell and the "requirements" section in quant trader job posts. Then you will have a rough idea about the importance of Econ/Fin background compared to Math / programming.

 

[Sherlock]

No program requires more than one finance course as a background This is the easiest part and they all teach you during the program. In general to get into a good program you need lots of mathematics, 1 finance course and 1 cs course When you get out of the program you will have the required knowledge in finance you need for being a trader (if this is what you want).

 

[ian.ward]

i'm sorry, but i find myself face-palming every time i read a post from "albo". not just this thread. someone has to agree

 

[albo]

Kid, take a close look at the student profiles of CMU, NYU, Berkeley, Baruch, Cornell and the "requirements" section in quant trader job posts. Then you will have a rough idea about the importance of Econ/Fin background compared to Math / programming.

Kevin, I'm not saying that Quant Traders don't need to know Math and Programming. Of course, without strong knowledge in Mathematics and Computation, they are not able to do the right quantitative analysis on different industry problems. However, my idea is that a Quant Trader should have a balance of Financial Economics and Math and Programming close to 50:50. A good trader needs to first understand how the market fundamentals move, in order to apply successful quantitative trading strategies.

 

[Sherlock]

A lot of fancy words you used :D bottom line in order to get into a top MFE program you don't need more than 1 finance course from your undergraduate studies or some relevant experience.

 

[albo]

A lot of fancy words you used :D bottom line in order to get into a top MFE program you don't need more than 1 finance course from your undergraduate studies or some relevant experience.

adt, I'm not saying that you need too many Finance courses to get into a MFE program. I know of many people that came straight out of an Electrical Engineering Program, and still got into a MFE program. What I'm trying to say, is that the lack of a Financial Economics background is preventing young Quants from getting the best positions in the job market. Companies rather want to have them do software engineering, which is a position that is very little or not at all related to Finance. Think about this question carefully! How many students coming out of an MFE program have been hired as Junior Traders? VERY FEW!

 

[kevin_charlemagne]

Think about this question carefully! How many students coming out of an MFE program have been hired as Junior Traders? VERY FEW!

There is a huge difference between "Trader" and "Quant Trader". As for "trader" even a bachelor degree is "recommended". I am graduating with a BS Econ and i have got some offers as "junior trader", "trader trainee" or "trader internship" from some prop trading firms. But these are like free-lancer traders where you have to deposit $1k-$5k to borrow capital from the firms. Losses are on your own and you split gains with the company. You can even work at home if you want. So after you paid $100k+ and 1.5 years to finish a top MFE, do you still want to be employed as a freelancer if it is "employed" at all?
No one denies the importance of Econ/Fin. You can of course have PhD's in both Finance and Mathematics to achieve a 50:50 balance, which makes you a super competitive candidate. But if the time is limited, say 4 years undergrad, the shortest cut is shown in the profiles of those who are admitted to the top programs. That's not my opinion, that is FACT.
Again, remember this:
1. Princeton is an MSF, not typical MFE.
2. Do research

 

[albo]

There is a huge difference between "Trader" and "Quant Trader". As for "trader" even a bachelor degree is "recommended". I am graduating with a BS Econ and i have got some offers as "junior trader", "trader trainee" or "trader internship" from some prop trading firms. But these are like free-lancer traders where you have to deposit $1k-$5k to borrow capital from the firms. Losses are on your own and you split gains with the company. You can even work at home if you want. So after you paid $100k+ and 1.5 years to finish a top MFE, do you still want to be employed as a freelancer if it is "employed" at all?
No one denies the importance of Econ/Fin. You can of course have PhD's in both Finance and Mathematics to achieve a 50:50 balance, which makes you a super competitive candidate. But if the time is limited, say 4 years undergrad, the shortest cut is shown in the profiles of those who are admitted to the top programs. That's not my opinion, that is FACT.
Again, remember this:
1. Princeton is an MSF, not typical MFE.
2. Do research

Kevin, I respect your opinion, and I'm sorry to tell you that you are wrong in many directions. I could go on and tell you what is wrong with your reasoning, but I'm not going to do that. From the way you construct your thoughts, it looks like you are an undergraduate. That's why I will advise you to be more flexible in your thoughts. Don't be superficial, as most people are. Instead, try to understand what stands behind things. Don't forget: Life is not only about finding the shortest cuts, and aiming on getting a "good job". I suggest you start reading some literature on careers in Finance, I'm sure it will change your points of view, in one way or another. A good book to start with would be My Life as a Quant: Reflections on Physics and Finance . The author is Emanuel Derman, currently the director of Columbia MFE program. If you read the book, you will see that there's is a reason why they call him "The Einstein of Wall Street", and it doesn't have much to do with his Physics background.

 

[Zeuge]

For the record, I'm taking a financial math class next fall, but the grades probably won't be in before I send my application. And I have/will have done a fair amount of finance-related coursework in my econ classes. I don't see much value in taking corporate finance or a business-student oriented investments class.

Back on topic, for those who have completed MFE programs or are familiar with the application process, what are my chances at these schools with this profile, and what could I do (within the stated constraints) to improve my profile?

 

[Sherlock]

I went through this process last year and I am at one of the schools you mentioned. If you get an internship it would be very good for your career development after the MFE program. Make sure you have great motivational letter and recommendation letters and you should be fine Of course you should make sure to get 170 or close on the new GRE. You will be taught stochastic calculus don't worry about it. Some of the programs you mentioned are more technical than others so if you get into several ones have that in mind. good luck (if you get to learn some C++ it would be useful as well; some programs require it)

 

[JDawg]

Why do you even want an MFE? With your stats and pedigree, you should be able to land a quant job straight out of college if you're smart. Apply for summer quant internships (Morgan Stanley Strats & Modeling, Citi Quant Trading & Analysis, etc), work your ass off over the summer, and get a full-time offer.

I should mention that I spoke to a representative for Berkeley MFE at a grad school fair and she told me to take Corporate Finance because my finance background is weak. Not sure if this applies to you, but it might be something worth considering.

 

[euroazn]

...I'm sorry to tell you that you are wrong in many directions. I could go on and tell you what is wrong with your reasoning, but I'm not going to do that. From the way you construct your thoughts, it looks like you are an undergraduate.

Albo, and you aren't an undergrad?
Cool story bro.

 

[Princeton Man]

def worth it

 

[kevin_charlemagne]

K Don't forget: Life is not only about finding the shortest cuts, and aiming on getting a "good job".

La vida es competicion, young man.
Companies want those who make money.
And universities want those who will be hired by companies.
Universities receive hundreds of apps every year
Companies receive thousands of apps each month
Why should they hire philosophers who cannot even do spreadsheets?
Only the words said by those who make tons of money in Wall st. are called "philosophy",
Before you want to convince other people, try to make some money first, that is called "credibility".
Go get hired by bulge brackets or start your own hedge funds.
But again,
Go check out the student profiles and job requirements.

 

[albo]

Albo, and you aren't an undergrad?
Cool story bro.

euroazn, I never said that I'm not an undergraduate. I was just trying to explain that as undergraduates, we still have a lot to see, and a lot to learn.

 

[mfegrad]

What I'm trying to say, is that the lack of a Financial Economics background is preventing young Quants from getting the best positions in the job market. Companies rather want to have them do software engineering, which is a position that is very little or not at all related to Finance. Think about this question carefully! How many students coming out of an MFE program have been hired as Junior Traders? VERY FEW!

this is flat out mistaken, and you're dealing with a chicken or the egg issue, for one. what is hindering young quants from getting the best positions are the following things:

a) a complete and utter lack of people skills;
b) an actual passion for the markets (as opposed to an "oh, this looks like a career where i can make some money, ho hum");
c) attending any but the best programs.
edit: d) the economy!

you could debate throwing "lacking a basic command of the english language and/or communication skills" in there, as well (if we're talking us/england based).

a good number of the people in my cohort ended up in trading roles, so i don't know what you're talking about, albo. sure, some ended up programming or doing other things, but that's mainly on them.

economics is important, but a trained monkey could tell you what will happen to rates/stocks/fx/commodities if u.s. unemployment shoots up (ceteris paribus, of course). that's the thing about the economics required at an fe level: it should really be intuitive, and if students actually cared about the markets (as they profess to), they'd have it down pat. it's not that students aren't getting the education (capm isn't really that tough); it's that they don't actually care, at the end of the day.

edit: kevin has been spot on in this thread. just fyi.